Which steps should be expected from the strategic partnership between Russia and China? What is most concerning for the West in the deepening of relations between Moscow and Beijing? Did the West hear the leitmotif of the joint Russian-Chinese statement made following Xi Jinping’s four-day visit to Moscow for the celebration of the 80th Anniversary of Victory in the Great Patriotic War? This and much else was discussed by Doctor in Historical Sciences and Director of the Institute of Asia and Africa of MSU Aleksey Maslov in an exclusive interview to Yuliya Novitskaya of the New Eastern Outlook.
– Mr Maslov, you are often called a guide to a world where West and East communicate in a language of sensations, symbols and meanings. In your opinion, how often does the West fail to understand or misunderstand the East when the two are in dialogue? Is it the West or the East that most often misunderstands?
– It seems to me that both sides do not always clearly understand each other. In addition, we must not forget that there are some historical roots of this process. The West only actively came to the East in the 18th and 19th centuries. It was then that the active study of religion, philosophy, politics and mentality began. And the East came to the West even later. Now, speaking about the East, we mean the Far East, East Asia and China. During this time, within a fairly short timeframe, we were able to develop entire methodologies for mutual study, mutual approaches and mutual respect. Therefore, the main point now is to deepen our understanding of internal processes and mentality.
In reality, what makes us different is not economics or technology. We have historically approached certain things in different ways. That is why today, in my opinion, due to the massive amount of information we have about China, we have the feeling that we know almost everything about it. A lot of popular books are being published, there are many blogs, you can buy tickets and be in China in just a few hours. What is there to study, it would seem? Everything is already known. But this creates a false sense of mutual understanding.
Furthermore, China is especially hyped up in Russia today, it is especially intriguing. Therefore, many people are promoting themselves, making a name for themselves, forgetting that the Russian approach to China is based on scientific methodologies developed over decades, or rather centuries. By the way, the Chinese side also has similar approaches. For this reason regular meetings, friendships and writing popular books are not enough. We must continue studying each other.
Then there will be understanding. To be honest, when we criticise Russia for not understanding China well enough, and when we say that Russian businesses do not always understand Chinese, the same can be said about our Chinese colleagues and partners, because there are new approaches to Russia there too. So, in my opinion, despite the fact that we have become very close here and know a lot about each other, scientific, fundamental, in-depth study is in full swing. The general public can already see the results of this study – how to behave, how to trade and what points of convergence there have been and will be in the future.
– Last year, Russia and China celebrated the 75th anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic relations. How would you describe the current level of cooperation between our two countries? China has recently proposed – for the first time in many years – to deepen the strategic partnership. Does this mean that we should expect steps aimed at creating a concept for common defence, a single banking, financial system etc.?
– Firstly, if we are talking about a common characteristic (I will specifically digress from certain official terms, because they are already well known), I would say that the most important thing underpinning our relations is stability. Over the past 40 years, our relationship has only progressed. Every year we improved, strengthened and developed certain aspects, from trade to political relations. And, most importantly, we developed them slowly, without any significant jumps, as unexpected actions are not appreciated within the framework of Chinese policy.
Secondly, over the past 40 years, starting in 1991, Russia has not lost its stable national identity, and this is very important for China. China highly values the ‘Mencius concept’, i.e. ‘face’, both in interstate relations as well as in relations between people.
A face can be lost, a face can be gained. It is not measured by the volume of, for example, trade, though China’s trade volume with the United States is significantly higher, almost three times that with Russia. But at the same time, the United States has a bad face, it is an unreliable partner. Therefore, the first point is reliability, stability.
Secondly, there is a really high level of mutual understanding and mutual trust between leaders, people, businessmen, politicians and researchers. In this sense, it turned out that China, a country that seemed to be much further away from us in terms of civilisational characteristics, became a much more reliable partner and a better friend than Western countries, to which, it would seem, Russian culture should be closer.
The third point is that Russia and China share a common understanding of the future. It is diverging, perhaps we will touch upon that. But, most importantly, both Russia and China understand that the current situation in the world is unsatisfactory for tens of countries and it is necessary to develop a joint global view of things, which, for example, provides for the non-use of pressure and sanctions. We are talking about the need for openness of scientific information, technological information, information related to medicine, education and so forth. On this we agree.
Well, there is one more thing that unites us. Both countries are serious about the future. Russia and China live not only in the memories of history (in any case, this is very important for countries), but we have an image before us, and we constantly think about the image of the future. That is what brings us closer. Specific figures – trade, exchange figures – are important, but, in my opinion, it is impossible to measure the real nature of the relationship with them.
– To which extent will Russia and China be able to move forward together in the long-term, not only in the context of current challenges?
– First of all, I think that Russian-Chinese relations are not opportunistic. Of course, a number of challenges bring us closer together, forcing us to take joint actions, as was the case, for example, with regard to Ukraine, Iran and many events that took place in the world. But this just allows us to match our positions, and it turns out that we really agree on most things.
I see no reason why Russian-Chinese relations should worsen. It cannot just be assumed that, for some reason, China should sacrifice its interests in favour of Russia or vice versa. I have repeatedly heard the question: “But why is China not helping Russia here, not doing something there?” China has its own interests. The fact that China has declared so-called pro-Russian neutrality on the Ukrainian issue is worth a lot. China suffered considerable consequences because of this, taking into account the sanctions against Chinese companies, as well as many other restrictions. Therefore, the most important thing now is to understand what the partner wants. Sometimes we attribute to China, as well as China to Russia, properties that are not characteristic of it.
The only thing I would like to say in this sense is: do not listen to random people who have not studied this subject in depth. Try to look at China’s mentality and political culture from the inside. Then communication will be much easier.
– Speaking with Senator Andrey Denisov, First Deputy Chairman of the Federation Council Committee on Foreign Affairs, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the Russian Federation to China in 2013-2022, I asked his opinion on what worries the West most about the deepening of relations between Moscow and Beijing. He said: “The West, fearing for its hegemony, is monitoring and attacking with renewed vigour those countries that could be an obstacle to this hegemony to some extent. In political and military terms, it is Russia, and in economic terms, it is China. Therefore, the advancing relations between Moscow and Beijing are a kind of combination of the most capable forces opposing the West in the modern world”. If I posed you this question, how would you answer it?
– Firstly, I would agree with Mr Denisov in many ways. He is not only an experienced politician, but also a brilliant expert on China. Therefore, in my opinion, he makes a very rational assessment of what is happening. I would only add that there is now a confrontation between the models for the development of the world. This includes models for which countries control what in this world.
China is perhaps the only country that can challenge the United States, and the Western world in general, in terms of technology and new models of development. Russia is a country with plentiful natural resources. In this sense, Russia and China complement each other in many ways. The most interesting thing, in my opinion, is that Russia should stop competing with China. We sometimes say: “Look, China has its own phones, its own TVs, its own motherboards, we need to overtake China!”
Sure, as a whole, this would seem to be correct. But we do not need to compete with China so much as complement China, just as China complements Russia. We have now reached a level where we have found the modus vivendi. Indeed, China receives the largest amount of gas and oil from Russia, coal is also supplied. China largely uses Russian fuel and Russian coal. Russia supplies not only energy resources, but also flax, soybeans and many agricultural products. In this sense, China is as dependent on Russia as Russia is on China.
The most important thing is that Russia and China can jointly propose such a development model and cover a geographical area that no other grouping or country in the world can offer. Therefore, the main force brining Russia and China closer is not economic, but moral and conceptual. And it cannot but worry the West, because in this sense it is not a challenge to the West, but simply an alternative way of developing. This alternative may be much more attractive for many countries, for example Asian or Eurasian countries.
In this sense, Russia and China can offer a reasonable alternative for international relations in the future.
– Is it possible to determine which place Russia occupies or will occupy in the new global order from China’s point of view?
– I think that all the talk about China being interested in weakening Russia is in vain; just as we are interested in a serious, reliable and developing China, China is also interested in Russia being a stable, developing, powerful economic force, as it is more profitable to cooperate with such a partner. And, most importantly, Russia is China’s only major ally on many issues, and an ally, of course, must be powerful, strong.
It seems China is ready to give Russia a kind of control or active presence in the Eurasian space with the agreement of the countries of Central Asia. Plus, for China, Russia is a representative of the stable, moral values that are appreciated in China. This is, above all, a positive assessment of the state’s role, the role of the family and history. This is what brings us closer to China in many ways.
I would not say that China views Russia as a raw material appendage, which I often hear. Let me remind you that Russia played the same role in relation to Western countries, the trade structure was the same. But for some reason we did not say that Western countries look at Russia as a raw material appendage. Therefore, it seems to me that for China, Russia is precisely a strategic partner in common solutions for the future.
Otherwise, if Russia were somehow removed from this equation, then China would not be left with that many great allies that share its ideals and goals, to put it mildly.
– Xi Jinping’s four-day visit to Moscow to celebrate the 80th Anniversary of the Victory in the Great Patriotic War became a hot topic in media outlets all over the world. According to many Russian experts, the main outcome of this visit was the joint statement, the leitmotif of which was fighting against attempts to reignite Naziism and militarism, and the revision of the outcome of World War II. Did the West hear this message?
– I am sure that the West heard these statements. The only thing that many people do not realise is that these are serious statements. They are not just statements on occasion, not just figures of speech; this is the actual position of the countries. After all, when we talk about Naziism and fascism, it worries not only Russia, but also China.
In China the grave memory of Japanese aggression and the negative statements about China from present-day Japan are well-remembered. China is highly concerned about attempts to revise history. It is no coincidence, by the way, that Xi Jinping’s visit fell precisely on the celebration of Victory Day in Russia. Most likely, the Russian leader will visit China in September to celebrate China’s Victory in World War II. This is one of the bricks in the overall concept that bring Russia and China closer.
But there is something else that is worse. It seems to me that the West does not understand how morally deeply engrained the concept of antifascism and anti-nationalism is in the souls of both Russians and Chinese. These are not only statements by the leaders, but also the real attitude of the soul. And it brings us very close. My personal communication with Chinese colleagues at various levels, from political to day-to-day, shows that there are few red lines in China. But an attempt to deal a blow to national dignity, various attempts to humiliate the country and belittle its historical memory – this is the red line that China will never let go of. Just like Russia.
– In 2025, Xi Jinping took part in the celebration of the 80th Anniversary of Victory, held on the Red Square, and Vladimir Putin will visit China in late August-early September, where he will participate in festivities dedicated to the Anniversary of Victory in World War II. The day before, our delegation will take part in the SCO summit, which will be held under the Chinese chairmanship. In what context does the West view these steps from our countries?
– First of all, it is clear that the West has changed its position towards the SCO and BRICS. For a long time, they were viewed as stillborn organisations, organisations for the sake of organisation. But it turned out that the SCO is a very effective structure, despite the fact that the number of its members has increased, which should seemingly have increased the number of disputes. But the SCO stands quite firmly on the positions announced at the very beginning: countering extremism, terrorism and separatism. All SCO countries share these goals. Of course, Russia and China are at the forefront, constantly supporting this agenda.
Secondly, the SCO, with the help of Russia and China, is actively turning to the humanitarian agenda, amongst other things. For example, there is the SCO Network University, which was initiated by Russia and China. Scientific exchange is underway, and serious joint staff training has begun. The SCO is taking its shape.
Of course, for Russia and China, the SCO should become an example of a platform where there is free discussion by a wide variety of countries. These countries may not be very friendly with each other. Moreover, they have conflicts, such as India and Pakistan, but at the same time they are able to agree on some joint initiatives, for example in the fields of transport or infrastructure. According to Russia and China, the SCO should, at the very least, make people’s and states’ lives more convenient and comfortable via transparent infrastructure, the creation of free trade zones, facilitating the simpler border crossing of goods, etc.
For this reason, when Russia and China jointly support this spirit of the SCO – a concrete understanding that makes it possible to solve any and all matters on the basis of consensus – it is an example of a modern international grouping that respects the opinions of all. This is precisely multipolarity.
– Mr Maslov, we thank you for this interesting and topical talk.
Interview by Yulia NOVITSKAYA, writer, journalist, correspondent for New Eastern Outlook
